CIA Command Staff: “You’re going to waterboard this guy if you have to. Do whatever it takes. This high-value detainee is not only a senior agent of al-Qa’ida but is most likely a guy that could lead us to Osama Bin Laden. I don’t care what your beliefs are, lives are at stake. Just get him to talk know matter what – understood!”

Carle: “I am one of your best in interrogating, but I won’t waterboard him or anybody. I don’t do torture. It’s illegal and amoral. Besides, given protocol, you would need to show me direct written approvals from the President, the AG (Attorney General), and the (CIA) Director.”

CIA Command Staff: “Here’s the paperwork. Now do it.”

Carle: “I am still not doing it. However, I’ll offer an arrangement with you. I will interrogate him until there is nothing left for him to say. If at that point, I believe he is a senior al-Qa’ida operative I will turn him back over to you to do what you will. But only at that point, and then I will be out as well…I will have nothing to do with any torture. Is that understood?”

As reported in a review of Carle’s background in his breakout book on espionage during the global war on terror, The Interrogator: An Education, it was said:

To his friends and neighbors, Carle was a wholesome, stereotypical New England Yankee, a former athlete struggling against incipient middle age, someone always with his nose in an abstruse book. But for two decades, Carle broke laws, stole, and lied on a daily basis about nearly everything. “I was almost never who I said I was or did what I was claimed to be doing.” He was a CIA spy on steroids. He thrived in an environment of duplicity and ambiguity, flourishing in the gray areas of policy.

Until 9/11, Carle traveled the world as an undercover agent taking on challenging assignments: sometimes living contradictory roles and lives very different than the person he was. It seems at times, the art of being a good spy is to convincingly act out being the bad guy without becoming one. He must live in a distant land of sorts: thinking, feeling, doing not as he is but what he must be. At times he must intentionally violate his values for something larger than himself but at the end, not lose himself in the process. Moreover, it must be done without hesitation.

To live in such a place seems to argue for knowing oneself in a deep, secure and confident manner; or conversely to deny one’s existence as having ownership or governance of one’s true self. Such an either-or dichotomy sounds simplistic or even reductionistic. Yet it serves to reduce the conflict and tension of living one’s authentic self during ambiguity. Such either-or ness argues on the one-hand for quiet confidence in embracing and surrendering to the thrashing, contradictory forces of the inner-outer world; or conversely, rigidly ignoring the duality of values and voice being confronted deep inside, by rotely submitting to doing your duty. Submission without critical exploration or reflection is often served through the immediacy of busy, compliant action. Yet as the philosophers tell us, eventually a price is paid for the unexamined life.

Carle’s upbringing led him to become one of the world’s leading interrogators and expert in the underworld of al-Qa’ida. His father believed in truth. He engrained in Carle that he must always question authority, and challenge taboos. He believed if you do not have an independent thinking mind, you are no better than a simple animal. One does not have to necessarily disagree with everything but instead test and evaluate to the limit of your ability. Carle further cultivated his natural curiosity while in school at Harvard and Johns Hopkins.

But later, while he was working for the government, he extended his inquisitiveness into shaping more penetrating questions and deep listening in pursuit of a story untold. Carle’s lived wisdom of how much to press versus hold back in the pursuit of truth and action was mediated by jarring experiences in the interrogation room. Conversely, he often worked or was surrounded by Navy Seals or Special Operations elite soldiers who at times were more motivated by the physical excitement of executing blood-curdling activity during high human drama and uncertainty. They knew Carle’s more cerebral ‘Ivy League collegiate approach’ of diligently considering options and consequences led the muscle-bound “go-to” guys to refer to him as ‘the Professor.’ Such differences led to playful sparring between them, but often resulted in better, more informed action. Interestingly, later Carle actually became a professor for one of America’s top University’s!

One day at headquarters, in the late summer of 2002, Carle’s boss approached and asked: “Glenn, how is your French? I heard it’s pretty great.” A simple question in the moment that would eventually challenge every moral fiber in his body. This was merely a lead into an assignment that would change Carle’s career for the foreseeable future. There was a terrorist who must be rendered (i.e. kidnapped). The CIA believed this man had enough information either to get them to Bin Laden or could at the least dismantle al-Qa’ida as a functioning organization. A mission was already set up. On short notice, Carle was enlisted to go overseas for a minimum of 20 days and depart within 24 hours. Secrecy was of upmost importance as national security was at risk. His wife and family would only know some business had come up that would require his immediate attention. They had learned not to ask questions.

In the world of spy-craft, the way CIA operatives get promoted is by being deployed to the hot spots, the dangerous places in the world where risk and uncertainty lives large. Their effectiveness is often measured more by outcomes than process. Future opportunities would only be granted based on performance from the past. Being put in harms’ way was always part of the job. It was a way of life. Being able to exit alive and having accomplished the mission goal was what mattered.

With the opportunity to be a part of taking down a notable bad actor would be career-defining. Carle knew this assignment was a chance to do one of the most consequential things in contemporary American history. It would address the 3,000 Americans who lost their lives on 9/11. He was instructed to do whatever it would take to get information.

Typically, in this high-pressure scenario, no questions are asked. However, that is not how Carle functioned. In turn, the questions came pouring out much to the boss’ surprise and disdain. In shock, with so many questions, his superior exclaimed: “What flag do you serve?!” To Carle, he did not care that he challenged the intentions and commands of the President. Even the highest-ranking officer in the land could not break his core roots. This mission’s internal battle had begun, and the waters were murky with contradiction. How does one face the greatest crisis in history while ethically and legally fulfilling the oath to preserve, protect, defend and promote? “When do I say, ‘no?’”

After consulting with government lawyers, Carle made up his mind to engage only in psychological measures when interrogating. While not inflicting physical punishment, the measures directly play and alter the human senses. This could be placing the target in a position where he cannot fully stand or lean because he otherwise would encounter a sharp object. In the eyes of the government, if there is not a lasting effect, then it is not considered torture. Carle’s view of where to draw the line as it related to physical and emotional pain and suffering was clearly different than his employer.

As in the case of the suspected al-Qa’ida officer, he was rushed off to a “black site” (off the books) prison. Carle determined the suspect was not who he was supposed to be, found the engagement to be “stupid, bad tradecraft” and the operation to be “a house of cards,” like so much of the war on terrorism, as he had experienced. Carle tells of the brutality experienced by the interrogated man. Upon reflection, Carle tried all he could to stop other operatives from the detainee abuse to no avail. Carle’s superiors overruled his plea to release the prisoner and sent the suspect to “Hotel California,” the CIA’s most secret detention center to be tortured. The suspect at the center of Carle’s story is likely Haji Pacha Wazir, an Emirati citizen. He was freed in February 2010, eight years after his capture. To Carle’s knowledge, there was no subsequent intelligence that ever came out of the operation.

In one of Carle’s many media interviews, with Anderson Cooper 360, Hardball with Chris Matthews, NPR with Diane Rehm, Inside Story with Al Jazeera, etc., he mentioned, “You don’t define yourself by the practices and objectives of the enemy” but figure out who are we and what we need to be on our terms, not theirs. Carle has repeatedly stated that torture does not work, is morally wrong and is clearly illegal under both international and U.S. law. He makes the point that the U.S. convicted many WWII Japanese soldiers “for the expressed crime – the torture – of waterboarding.”

Regarding the al-Qa’ida suspect, the grotesque act on the life of an innocent man weighed heavy on Carle’s conscience. He expected his demons to come from foreign adversaries, not from a place he called home. Slipping back into habitual tendencies, Carle began to compartmentalize. Snippets of memories were suppressed into the unconscious as centers of focus fade in and out. Each day required a blank slate regardless of any previous actions taken. One moment an international spy, the next it is story time at his child’s bedside.

His mind began to float into an existential realm he calls “La La Land.” A mindset he has encountered all his life facing the constant battle of his ex-wife vs. her alcoholism. Over the course of 20 years, there was an essence of bewilderment, ignorance, false starts, and a slow awakening. Yet, through his failures and misunderstandings, he evolved during an emotional, mental and spiritual journey.

One key learning for Carle in going through this ordeal was to be more truthful to yourself. That is to willingly self-disclose something of a more intimate or personal nature. It is hard for others to share their true self, never mind any state secrets, without first being able to trust your. Incentives don’t even work on an on-going basis unless the other party really believes or care about you even if for a moment. Carle believes trust isn’t reciprocated unless given: letting the person sitting across from you understand you while you begin to understand him or her. So, the real work of understanding their motives and actions, only starts with you first being open yourself. In some ways, it is a Buddhist way of embracing the moment: Be the change you want in others. Once you achieve this foundation of openness, a radical spirit of truth-in-the-moment, only then can one begin to lay a foundation that delves deeper to find the true self in others and their hidden causes. Demanding, forcing and squeezing the last pip out of someone is considered failure in his eyes.

Being open sounds easy from afar. However not hiding parts of yourself with you and others can be torturous and courageous in its own right. For years Carle compartmentalized tender, scary, anxious unknown parts of himself to protect himself. Compartmentalization, a dividing and screening of the painful and problematic with the peaceful and pleasurable, once viewed as an intriguing and useful tactic, led to a heart attack a few years ago. Now, Carle relies on a few influential people in his life to insert himself back into reality. His wife Su Shin, who grew up five houses down from him in childhood, also shares the same root values of his family. She too prizes education and more open communication. Carle says she won’t flatter just to flatter. Hard work, thoughtful actions, and humility make you an admirable person. A government friend, Jim Lawler, helped Carle to let go of how other people perceive himself while French writer/politician Max Gallo educated him on the insight of Ramon Aorn.

“Aorn knew that the greatest danger was certainty, truth is found in doubt and was an affirmation of faith and confidence in life.”

To deepen awareness in the moment and the future, Carle calls on the younger generation to get comfortable with the idea of taking a personal risk of embracing the unknown, the uncertain or even the threatening. That is, to question and challenge ideas, feelings and experiences. To lean into the truth that lies within them.

But, in order to truly succeed, you must understand the perspectives of others on their terms (not yours) for theirs is often vastly different from your own, whether known or not. Learn and educate the mind, body, and spirit to cultivate an independent mind. And when it is time to
address the demons, start by asking: “Is there a thorn in your side?” If so, take that thorn away to avoid being sucked down into the abyss of despair. Do not be fooled, this is not a simple and quick process. You may lose some battles and win others. The alternative is to lead a life of self-deception… of being too comfortable, of being too safe or living in the artificial, illusive void of portraying something as real and relevant when it is nothing. In the midst of this, being there for others allows you to be present and purposeful in the world around you.